Heartbreak to Happiness

How to Cope if You’re Struggling with Trauma After Your Breakup and What is Post Separation Abuse and How to Spot the Signs with Dr Karen Williams, Part 1

• Sara Davison • Season 1 • Episode 77

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Intro:

Welcome to the heartbreak to happiness show with Sara Davison. If you're struggling with a breakup and you feel shocked, angry, betrayed, devastated, or sad and alone, then this podcast is for you. best selling author and award winning hosts Sara Davison shares how you too can get on with your life to heal, grow and move from heartbreak to happiness. here's your host, Sara Davison.

Sara Davison:

Welcome back to the show. And today, my guest is Dr. Karen Williams. Karen is a consultant psychiatrist who treats patients who have suffered complex trauma and other kinds of trauma. The deficit of services targeted for this population has led her to found in the organization doctors against violence towards women. The primary aim of this group is to advocate for increased public and professional awareness of trauma informed care. So I am super excited to welcome Dr. Karen Williams to the show. Welcome, Karen.

Dr. Karen:

Thanks, Sara. Thanks for having me. Oh, no,

Sara Davison:

I am so excited because I know you have so much experience that is going to benefit my listeners today. So please tell us a little bit about you and the work that you do.

Dr. Karen:

I'm a psychiatrist and I work in the town of Wollongong. So I don't know if your listeners know any anyone in that area that we're in. I'm in New South Wales, in Australia, southern part of New South Wales, yes, coastal area. And I work in a hospital out of a hospital that services a number of different types of people. But most of my patients are those who are suffering trauma. So that might be family trauma, sexual trauma, and also trauma from frontliners first responders, that kind of thing as well.

Sara Davison:

Wow. Okay, so you're busy lady. So tell us what kind of clients do you see on a daily basis,

Dr. Karen:

I see a lot of the ordinary things that you'd expect to see interest to see those who have got depression and anxiety, bipolar disorder. But the vast majority of patients who I have gotten to really know when we can see on a very regular basis, I have come to find that most of them have histories of family trauma. And so a lot of the times their diagnosis is actually wrong. And they have histories of horrific experiences, things that we really would never imagine the average person experiences but are happening in our homes on a day to day basis.

Sara Davison:

So can you give me more details about that? What would that look like?

Dr. Karen:

Yeah, sure. I think a lot of people think of family violence as something that happens to other people, even people are experiencing it think that what they're going through is normal and what other people are going through. It might be violence, but they don't see themselves as being a survivor or a victim of somebody who is violent towards them. So a lot of people that I see will come to me with symptoms of anxiety, and then that's that we work, they come forward, they say, you know, I'm really anxious all the time, or I'm sad, or I'm suicidal. But when you get to know them, and what's happening in their homes, it's completely and utterly abusive. And they will often not be identifying that. And that's the nature of family violence said it's just sort of slow, insidious process that those that are living it often don't see it. So often. For me, my job involves identifying that for people and saying, Hey, you know, like, you don't have a mental illness here. This is you responding to what's happening to you in a home in a very normal way.

Sara Davison:

He I think that's a really good point. because quite often, if you are in an abusive relationship, you're made to feel that you are the crazy one, and there is something wrong with you. And actually, it's just a symptom of what you're experiencing. And it's actually a very normal human reaction to being a victim of abuse and it doesn't have to be physical abuse it does it.

Dr. Karen:

That's right 100% what you know what you said, it is that feeling like there's something wrong with you and that's where they end up me psychiatrist because they truly believe that there's something wrong with them. And the whole will the tools that an abuser will use, be deliberately designed that way to make the victim feel that there's something wrong with her. And to make her doubt everything about herself her entire being she doubts and that's all have coercive control works. It starts off with, you know, this very lovely person who everybody finds charming and wonderful. And so, you know, usually the woman believes But she's very lucky to have found such a person. Because abusive men are often the most lovely type of people may be loved by everyone, they often have wonderful jobs. And so the woman thinks, well, I'm really lucky, I've got this great guy, who will start off with, you know, this huge amount of charm and, and you know, we've got the ultimate love, you know, this is the love that you'll never get again. And she will believe that this is the love of her life often. But then over time, as he starts to degrade her and humiliate her in a very, very subtle way at the beginning, and isolate her from all of her support, then she starts to think that the problem is with her, because everyone else around her saying, Oh, you're so lucky to have a guy like that, you know, and all of that stuff that he's doing to her, it's done in such a way that she doesn't even see it coming. So by the time it's it's at that physical stage that everyone can readily recognizes domestic violence, there's been an entire period of time, where her capacity to, to see the abuse that she's suffering has actually laid a foundation for this physical violence to happen met often happens much, much later in the relationship.

Sara Davison:

Yeah, and often you see that when a divorce happens when actually you start to pull away, or you stand up for yourself and say, I don't want this anymore. Quite often. I know, in the UK, the stats are 30% 30% of domestic homicides happen within three months of separation, just because the perpetrator is losing control and escalates that abuse to a physical level. I mean, I'm really interested in as he talks about it as women, is it women only you treat, or you just see more women going through this?

Dr. Karen:

I think we have to acknowledge the gendered nature of domestic violence, okay, that domestic violence is the patriarchy. So, you know, I know people feel a bit funny about that word. And I think, you know, it's just a made up idea, because we often don't, we can't see it very easily. So a lot of people are still in denial about its existence, even though its existence is demonstrated within every layer of our society, you know, in government that's mostly male dominated, a world where, you know, most leaders are males, pay scales that are completely, you know, we've got males and far more than women are earning and female dominated professions are paid less. So the patriarchy exists. But a lot of people still would like to think that doesn't. Domestic Violence is about entitlement. And it's about having that feeling of control over over others. And the reality is, women can't hold that kind of power over men. And they don't have the ability to completely handicap that woman, I suppose. It can't stop him from working. It's not structurally as society isn't structured in such a way, where, you know, she can say, Oh, look, it'd be better you stay at home. And I don't think you shouldn't be going out with your friends. And you shouldn't be wearing that. All of that stuff that happens within a typical relationship, it doesn't go the other way around. Because women are earning less, it's easy for the man to say, I think it's better for you to stay at home, I think it's better, you don't work. And you stay with the baby. And because biologically, it does often make sense that the woman stays at home if she's breastfeeding. All of those societal structures can be used in a way to hold her back and to dominate. And so yes, it is 100% agenda issue. We do see that most perpetrators are males. Most victims are females. That's just a fact. It's just a reality.

Sara Davison:

Yeah, absolutely. So for people listening right now, they're thinking, well, how would I know if I'm in an abusive relationship? But you know, I feel uncomfortable a lot of the time and some of those things you've just pointed out about stay at home? While Yeah, I'm saying, oh, people might be thinking that what are the signs that people can spot to identify if they are in an abusive relationship?

Dr. Karen:

That's really good question. Because I do think that a lot of abusive behavior can often be misread as love and as signs of someone caring, more so about you. I do think that as you talked about that discomfort, our bodies do give us signs when we're unsafe. And we should be teaching women and young girls to start paying attention to how they feel within a relationship. There are certain patterns that we do see, and as I said before, the relationship will often start is that you know, very love bombing people talk about, you know, excessive amounts of love and praise and talking about how great you know, he thinks you are. And by doing that, he sort of props this person up to believing that in his eyes, she's amazing and she doesn't want to let him down. So she We'll continually try to strive to be better, and continue to maintain that role of being perfect in his eyes. So often, even if she has that a need or want to express herself as fine, you know, he's expanding his behavior, for example, she will probably not want to raise it too much, because she wants to be this ideal woman that he's keeps talking about. So you know, things like, I'm so glad you're not like those other girls that want to go out all the time that you want to stay at home with a baby, you're a good mom, you're better than those women. So again, you know, really praising the behavior he wants her to have. And then at the same time, undermining behaviors that he doesn't want her to have, like all that going out, it's something that isn't negative in some way. Oh, you know, I'm so glad you don't like those women that want to send their kids to childcare, you know, you value family so much more. And, and again, that's that telling her, I don't want you to work without telling her I don't want you to work, and affirming the idea that she should be at home, you know, you know, we had kids, mothers that send their kids off to daycare, they clearly didn't really want them, they want somebody else to mine them. So you can get them to do whatever you want. If you really want to, you know, frame it in such a way that she thinks that she's doing something that she wants to do. So after a while she made those choices, thinking, Oh, I want to be the one to stay at home, I don't want to, to go out to work. And then if you know, you keep a woman out of work for a long enough time, she is going to lose confidence in her ability to go back to work. And that anxiety that she will get. And he might even say to her, What skills do you even have, and how much money are you really going to make Anyway, you work a couple of days a week, you're probably not going to make that much money. And it will cost us more for you to go to work. So you might as well stay at home. So it's just a way that they will start to cut off her financial independence. And it's a really important part for a woman will for anybody to have financial stability, right and ability to walk away from a relationship you need money. And if you stop her from working, you've immediately put in a huge, big barrier for her to leave. And part of persons repertoire is to try and get rid of all of the things that she she could have to leave him because he wants to own her he wants to control her. So finances is one of the first things right, if she's got her own income stream, then he doesn't need him for that. So he wants her to depend on him for money. She also would need a support person, right? Someone who's going to listen to her and talk to her if he destroys all of those relationships. And she is stuck with only herself and her own thoughts. And it's harder for her to recognize that he's hurting her. And if he keeps her on her toes all the time and she's in survival mode, then she's not going to be able to make plans for for her future or escape even. So there's a whole bunch of things that he's going to do to make her her leave, leaving and impossibility really. And also then our society as well with our family law courts structured the way that they are. Then our family law court will also trap her too. Well, at least here in Australia and I think it's the same for you guys over there. You can't just leave your partner if you've got kids, if you don't have kids, you know, you could walk away, potentially and move on. And I mean, you'd have some financial stuff you might have to separate but in general, it's fairly easy. To leave, if you're not if, if there are no children involved, but the moment that children are involved, you can't just pick up at me, we always ask, why do you stay, but she's not allowed to leave their kids because we see children as part as equally, but you know, the property of both him and her. So even if she's going through an abusive relationship, she's not allowed to just walk off if she, she, it has to go through the family law court. And once it goes to the family law court, in Australia, at least, it's not an inquisitorial type of process where people are trying to work out what's happening in Australia is, you know, their typical here, and one of you will align, and you both, you know, equally as bad as each other. You both want these kids and we want to split them down the middle. That's what we want to do. Forgetting the fact that most people that are going through that are coming from abusive relationships. And we know that statistically, within at least in Australia, it's about 80%. To will probably more than that, will have histories of domestic violence within those relationships. So we've got a situation here, which I think is very similar, where if a woman is to raise issues about abuse within the relationship, she will be accused of lying as saying that as a way to obtain custody. So it's seen as a way to strategically influence the magistrate a particular way. But what happens here in reality is that it influences in a negative way, it makes it look like she's a liar, manipulative, and she's actually actively now encouraged not to report the abuse, because it's more likely to have a negative outcome.

Sara Davison:

Yeah, I mean, we have that here in the UK, too. I know that, you know, quite often clients will say that they've been advised by that, or is not to mention abuse, because it may look as if she's bad mouthing the Father, and that will be reflecting negatively on her and the concepts for that can be quite severe. So I think, you know, sounds like there are a lot of similarities. And unfortunately, you know, the justice system is a little bit more of a casino at times, if you are going through something like that. And I suppose it makes sense that statistically, most cases that go to courts are abusive, as you said, 80%, or maybe more, because most people would want to rationally work that out amicably, and fairly, I suppose without it having to go to somebody else making that decision, and having the trauma, the expense. And also the emotional stress of that as well can be, I suppose very much part of the post separation abuse that we see time and time again, but again, is only really just being recognized as a thing, you know, most people I think, had assumed and a lot still do that. If you leave an abusive relationship, well, then you're out, and it stops. But obviously, you and I both know that if you leave an abusive relationship, but you have children, then that can escalate even and become even worse. Do you see this? Yeah, I

Dr. Karen:

mean, there is absolutely no advantage to going through the family law court. And, you know, most normal people will go, I don't want to spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and with literally talking hundreds of 1000s of dollars to to split our feet, split what we have, why would why would anybody want to do that you're going to lose more, both of you lose, right? If it's when it comes to finances, as you begin to lose if you spend that kind of money. So it makes sense to work together and collaboratively to split things down the middle. And even if you split, not down the middle, you're still going to probably make more and take home more money once you talk about lawyers costs. So people that have healthy personalities or in healthy relationships, they're not going to go through the family law system at all. They don't want to go that way. You only go through that when people are deliberately standing in your way. And it's that deliberate ness that may I would say would define what you see in in an abusive relationship. There's someone who is a lot of time these men that are going through Family Law court, they have not been part of that child's life. They're out off working and woman's doing all of the day to day stuff with the child and suddenly they want them. You know, I want them 100% of the time. Some of my patients, their partners don't even know what school their kids are at. They suddenly go I want full custody, you know, and are prepared to pull these kids away from their primary caregiver which is the mother just because they want to hurt her.

Sara Davison:

Yeah, and quite often it is more about punishing the mother than it is about what's best for the children. I think with any court process, you know, healthy people who have decent relationships will be able to go through the process of all It's best for the kids and dragging this through the courts, whether you discuss the ins and outs of your kid or not, it causes so much stress and emotional strain that the kids are going to pick up on that. And you know, that's not healthy for a child either. So you know, if your child focus, you really wouldn't be going anywhere near the family courts. And it is also quite scary to put your own child's life in the hands of a complete stranger who doesn't know your child never met your child. That can be quite scary to write.

Dr. Karen:

Yeah, and most mothers do not want to have 100% custody. If there's a loving father out there, that will look after them. Most mothers will be happy to share care because it's hard going being a single mum that no single mom loves that. Having no one you know, never having any night off, never been able to do anything ever, without having to call on friends or family to help look after the children. So it's, it's kind of this idea that there'd be women going, I just want to cut off the one other parent that could help me raise this child, whoever can parented like a mother does.

Sara Davison:

I think there are cases of women that do weaponize their children. I know I've seen it in cases where maybe their their partner has been unfaithful to them. And they say, Well, why the hell should I not have 100% custody, if you're the one that's gone off, if you want to stay, then that would have been different. And I have seen that. But I think it is in the minority, in my experience, clearly in the minority. And quite often that dies down after a period of time, but I have seen people weaponize it so I can see where it can come from.

Dr. Karen:

And within a family law court that's actually being studied, and the percentage of vexatious allegations is so small, for where the woman is doing that, it is much more likely that a woman will not port abuse, then it will be that she would make that up. Whereas men reporting abuse has statistically been proven much more likely to be exceptions. So that's again, that idea of it happening with worse, I won't deny it might happen occasionally, the statistics would show otherwise, that it is not something that we should be assuming and really taking it as a such a strong risk that we would wrestling children in abusive relationships because of the possibility she might be lying. Because that's the idea that the mother is lying about abuse, or that even that the child is lying about what's happening. That myth is so dangerous, because those kids that are being disbelieved are being put with abusive fathers, and I've been, you know, scarred for life with with what happens to them. I mean, I've got a set of, you know, now grown up as inpatients that I have now grown up after having been placed with abusive fathers under the court system, and the impact that it has is enormous.

Sara Davison:

What kinds of things do you see them with these children as they grow up?

Outro:

That's it for today's episode of heartbreak to happiness. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review to win a free ticket to sorrows virtual heartbreak to happiness retreat. This is a transformative combination of live webinars with Sara herself, coupled with her empowering online video program designed to help you cope better with your breakup and start feeling happy again. For more details, head on over to heartbreak to happiness podcast.com where you can also get a copy of Sara's gift. Thank you And join us again on the next episode for another dose of heartbreak to happiness.