A New More Amicable Way to Divorce and How to Prepare for Court: Co-Founder The Divorce Surgery, Samantha Woodham

Samantha Woodham is a family law barrister at 4 Paper Buildings and co-founder of The Divorce Surgery. She is recognised as leader in her field in Chambers & Partners, Legal 500, Spears and the Tatler High Net Worth Guide.

From her extensive experience representing husbands and wife in the Family Court, Samantha was convinced there was a better way to resolve family change than requiring each spouse, from day one, to seek advice from separate legal teams.

Transcript

Intro: 0:03

Welcome to the heartbreak to happiness show with Sara Davison. If you're struggling with a breakup and you feel shocked, angry, betrayed, devastated, or sad and alone, then this podcast is for you. best selling author and award winning hosts Sara Davison shares how you too can get on with your life to heal, grow and move from heartbreak to happiness. here's your host, Sara Davison.

Sara Davison: 0:33

Welcome back to the show. And Today my guest is Samantha wooden. Samantha is a family law barrister at for paper buildings in London, UK. She is also the co founder of the divorce surgery, and that's why I've invited her here as my guest today. Now, Samantha is recognized as a leader in her field in chambers and partners legal 500 spears and the Tatler high net worth guide. And from her extensive experience of representing both husbands and wives in the family court, Samantha was convinced that there was a better way to resolve family change than requiring each spouse from day one to seek advice from separate legal teams. So she and fellow barrister Harry gates took a big risk by setting up their own business, the divorce surgery in 2018. So I'm super excited to welcome Samantha William to the show. Welcome, Samantha.

Samantha: 1:37

Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here.

Sara Davison: 1:40

I'm really excited. So tell me all about the divorce surgery and how it came about.

Samantha: 1:46

Okay. So I'm a family law barrister. And I've been doing it for about 15 years, you know, and I was always representing one spouse or another on divorce in relation to their finances and how they should be divided or the arrangements for their children. And about six years ago, a couple approached me directly. And they said, Look, you know, so we don't want separate lawyers, we don't have to want to go through this adversarial process, we would love to come to you together. And for you to tell us what a fair outcome would look like for us. Now, I assumed that I wouldn't be able to do that. Because solicitors conflict rules mean that they can't advise couples together. But I kept thinking about it. So I got in touch with the bar Standards Board and the bar council he regulate barristers through regulated differently. And they said, Yeah, you know, barristers can advise couples together, provided that you're not then representing either of them going forward, if you're essentially expanding to both of them what a judge would consider fair, then you can do it. And it was just such a game changer for me when I found that out, and then played around a bit. And it turns out that this is the default in loads of other European countries. So you know, if you are getting divorced in France, or Italy or the Netherlands, it's totally normal to share a lawyer. It's just something we're not used to here. And so that was the discovery that led to me setting up the divorce surgery with another family law barrister called Harry gates, and offering couples the opportunity to get legal advice together. Wow. And in your bio, you said that it was a big risk. Why did you feel it was such a big risk? Well, I mean, we're going against centuries of precedent, you know, we've got this kind of adversarial legal system, haven't we actually, problem is that always in practice, it seems to me that when you're dealing with the untangling of an intimate emotional relationship, the idea of then putting those two people in an adversarial process was so not fit for purpose, but it's all we had. And it's all I knew, and it's all Harry knew. And he knew lots of kind of, you know, mates or, you know, soulmate, loser Family Law, solicitors, and, and some have been hugely supportive of what we've done. But some said, You know, I think you're naive, I think that you don't understand that couples want the fight, and they want the battle. And, you know, they're not going to want this sort of way through that is much more cooperative. But it turns out, luckily, they were wrong, you know, couples don't want the kind of big expensive, conflict driven battle, if they can avoid it.

Sara Davison: 4:36

I do think you've been extremely brave, because to stand up and change a system that is, you know, so set in his ways for so many years, as you said, Yeah, it really takes a brave person step up, so well done to you and Harry, and it's great to see that encouragement of starting the divorce process or in an amicable way. I mean, obviously, some people may have some conflict Right, so what kind of couple would be best suited to this solution?

Samantha: 5:03

So it's really interesting actually, because when you think about getting impartial advice from one way that you share, you kind of imagine, I think, probably you know, the Gwyneth Paltrow, we're kind of conscious uncoupling the kind of, you know, couples coming in holding hands. And, you know, in reality, barely anybody fits that profile. Because you know, your relationship, you're breaking up and decided that you don't want to stay together, that's hugely emotive time, and you're probably not getting along very well. So most of the couples that come to us are aligned on one thing. And for many that to be, look, we just want something that's fair. And we don't know what fair is, or we want to be able to tell our children that we've been fair to each other. Or sometimes it's as simple as you know, my neighbor, or my best friend got divorced and spent hundreds of 1000s of pounds. And I don't want that, you know, because we offer a fixed fee service, because we do it in such a streamlined way. Whatever it is, that means that you're aligned on something that starts a communication. And that can be enough, he knew we've had couples come to us in litigating one couple were litigation for five years before they came to us. And they then settled within three months. But what they went through their own journey, their own emotional experience, and they finally got to the point where it will actually it's the process that's damaging, and it's the process that's stopping us reaching resolution. You know, and I think the trouble is, you say the word divorce, and all the connotations are so negative, you know, and you instantly think, Oh, it's, it's lawyers, and it's battles, and it's cool. And what most couples don't realize is that family judges, the last place they want you to be is in court, you know, they're sending couples away, they're so desperate for people to resolve it out of court. And so the more that we can kind of begin to educate the public change the way that the media stigmatize divorce a bit and say, Look, this can be navigated in a in a more positive way, and it's still going to be tough, and the emotions are still going to be running high. But it doesn't necessarily mean just because you're really not getting along, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a court battle.

Sara Davison: 7:25

Absolutely. I mean, having been through a two and a half years of divorce process where the five day court hearing in the High Courts, I mean, I know all about that. And I do agree that it can make the process a lot more difficult and a lot more stressful for the individuals. So how does it work, then, so people would come to a couple who are breaking up come to you together, at the same time,

Samantha: 7:50

we've got quite a kind of a clear process, because obviously, we need two screens, so that I'm extremely conscious that this is not suitable for every separating couple. And the three key things that you know, in terms of your listeners listening and thinking about it, the key kind of red flags for us are, you know, if there's an abuse dynamics, such that you don't feel safe, you know, we cannot have a joint process that, that fosters any kind of a nice dynamic like that. If you're anxious, if it's finances, and you're anxious that the other person is going to be dishonest. So if you really feel that you have a situation where you're going to need a kind of forensic inquiry to trace assets and locate what there is, then again, you need independent legal advice. And the third is in sort of, for international families, if you think there's going to be a dispute between you about the country in which you should get divorced. Again, it's really important to get legal advice as early as possible. So we always screen couples meets them individually first, kind of go through their situation, check they're suitable, but also really talk to them about the process and make sure that we're suitable for them. In terms of how it then works, if they go through, there's sort of two key parts. The first is information gathering. So in a finance case, we take the company through their financial disclosure exercise. Now, when Harry and I set up the divorce surgery, it was really important to us, but it was really rigorous. So this isn't a lighter version of what you need to do. If you went to court. It's just as tough. So we need full forms the and actually we asked, which is the court document. And actually we asked for quite a lot of additional disclosure as well. And you know, if it gets to the stage of advice, and we don't feel or the advising barrister doesn't feel that they have sufficient information on which to advise then the process stops. So, you know, we're quite strict about that. But we help couples get back together. And then it's a question of getting the advice. So on a finance case, a couple would either go straight to the advice session with their barrister, where they get told what the bracket of outcome is, and then they get a sort of detailed written advice. Or in a more complex case, we might have a disclosure session first, where we're going through that financial disclosure thinking, do we need any more evidence on tax or valuations of businesses, whatever it is, on a children case, we treat really quite differently, because they need very different things they want to children case, we always have a co parenting session first, where a couple works with a non lawyer to build their co parenting skills, we somebody called bill Hewlett, he's extremely experienced in helping parents navigate from kind of relationship that wasn't working for them into a co parenting relationship, which can and then after that, we move on to again a legal advice session with a barrister so that, you know, parents really understand the legal landscape around children. And also, I think, crucially, understand how little you know, a judge in the court process can help them when it comes to children, it is you such a blunt instrument, and the more you know about what it feels like to be at court and have a judge, he's never met your children and will never meet your children imposing decisions on you, the more motivated I think you are to look at reaching solutions, consensually, if you can. So, I mean, the process both processes are fixed fee, and we created the beginning. So couples know where they stand on fees. And, you know, couples are with us for weeks. I mean, the on finances six to eight weeks, probably on children four to six weeks. So it's Worlds Apart from the two sided litigation group.

Sara Davison: 11:49

Yeah, wow. So in week two, you could go through and get advice from a barrister on what you should do either financially, or in your children's case with custody and childcare arrangements. So you would find that in which That's amazing. I mean, for someone who spent years those things out in goats, I mean, especially at the moment with the pandemic obeah. In the UK, the courts are everything is very delayed, it takes a lot longer. So I can see there's a real beauty in that. So would you do that then in person together as a couple with the barrister in his chambers? Or would you do it over zoom? How does it work?

Samantha: 12:29

Well, so at the moment, were slightly restricted in the UK because of COVID. So everything is remote, which means by zoom, and that obviously means that for a couple or separating couple, we don't need to be in the same room together, if they don't want to be they can do it from their respective homes or from separate rooms, if they're still living together. Once you know restrictions left, we would then give couples the option. So they can either come in in person and have a joint meeting together with their barista, or they can do it by saying I have to say, even before the pandemic, a lot of couples opted for remote, because it you know, it's such a personal private experience and having to schlep in, you know, to London, and go to a very formal lawyers office or barristers chambers, to hear advice about your intimate life, I think it's quite jarring. And I like the idea that people can be at home with their own cup of tea, you know, surrounded by their things, maybe get a candle going, you know, and kind of feel supported in that way, rather than taken into a much more corporate legal environment to hear the advice. And I think the only other thing that's, you know, obviously important for people to know about about this process, and it's deliberately designed this way, is that we don't negotiate with couples. So it's not mediation, we're not kind of sitting them down at the advice session and saying, like, this is the advice, right? So you know, what are you going to compromise on? What are you going to do? What's your proposal? It's not like that at all. It's literally an opportunity for them to hear what the answer is likely to be and why and then go and think about it. And I think that's really important for lots of different reasons, but particularly dynamics, you know, some people feel really kind of bullish and confident about fighting their corner and negotiating, and some people really do. And it's really important if you're going to reach an agreement for the long term that works. It's got to be one that each of you have had plenty of time to reflect on, and come to an agreement at your own pace. So you know, that's why we do the written advice so that couples can then go off and think about it and they want to get a second opinion from a solicitor they can, you know, if they want to, you know, Milan it for a few weeks or a few months, whatever they want to do, they can if they want to take it into mediation, they can But we're not kind of putting people on the spot, because I think that's also something that can feel quite intimidating to clients, if they feel like they're going to be required to either, you know, advocate for themselves, or make concessions in what is a really crucially important decision for them. Yeah. And I do think that it must reduce conflict, even if there is conflict there. Because obviously, when it comes to splitting up finances and working out child arrangements, they are very difficult areas to discuss. And if you don't agree, or you've got your reasons for not wanting to do certain things, then I think even the most amicable couples can confine that there is conflict there, I guess. Yeah. And I guess if you're not going to negotiate with them and trying to find a solution, then that takes away that conflict, because they can then do that in their own time outside and talk and get other a second opinion needed baby. But unless they've got the likely outcome of water judge if they went through that whole process, which is not only expensive, but the emotional stress of going to court, I think, is completely underestimated. For a lay person, like me, and all my clients that go through that court process, you don't know what it's like until you walk in there. And it is so stressful, emotionally, and extremely intimidating. And I think, you know, just thinking about what I went through in court and having to stand up to a barrister, who is the mouthpiece for your acts, you want something that's different to what you and your team are trying to get. It can be really stressful cancer, but unbelievably stressful. And I don't, I don't think that there's any way, obviously, I still have my private practice, I still represent clients in court. And, you know, as you'd imagine, I have always been extremely focused on settlement. But when I talk to clients about cost benefit analysis, you need to quite often lawyers will talk to clients about well, what can we achieve from the court process? And how much is it going to cost us to get there and to go through the process, but we were so fixated always on what we can actually put a number on. And I always say to my clients, okay, fine, let's talk about the actual legal fees. But let's then talk about the emotional cost. And what this is going to do to you and what it's going to do to your family to go through this. And there was some research done by the Nuffield in 2019. And which, you know, call this out call that family court proceedings as being a public health crisis, because of the emotional harm they caused to the adults and the children involved. You know, and we've got a situation where so many couples, I mean, I think 38% of separating couples in that study, were ending up in court over the arrangements for their children, you know, it's almost the norm. And yet that's putting those adults and their children through this extremely stressful process. And the trouble is that, you know, I'm a barrister, full time, I find it stressful. And if I find it stressful, then how on earth and my clients coping? And, you know, I often think when I leave a case, you know, these words that were said, you know, the words I put down in my skeleton argument, that the questions I put in cross examination, these words can never be unsaid. And this is a couple in a family then that have to live with that, you know, they're never gonna forget what was said, you know, and it's such a sort of shocking experience that I think you remember it? I mean, you'll know much better me, but I imagine you remember it very vividly.

Sara Davison: 18:42

Oh, you do?

Samantha: 18:43

And then you've got to somehow, you know, particularly if you have children together, figure out how on earth you can co parent with the legacy of that really, you know, quite damaging experience.

Sara Davison: 18:54

Yeah, I mean, I see this every day in my clinic. I've got clients this week, who just want sessions, because they're going to call and they're saying, sorry, I'm going to be up against a barista, and they've done their research and they know maybe it's a tough barista, or even if it isn't, just what kind of questions Am I going to get asked for those people listening some of you up too far down the line to come and use the service? Or maybe they're in a different country, and they don't have that service available? There. What advice would you give them if they are facing this contentious, difficult situation with a barrister? What advice would you give them for preparing for going to court?

Samantha: 19:30

So in terms of preparing for court, I think always it's important to make sure that you have a legal team that aligns with your values. So I would always encourage clients to continually assess with your legal team, you know, what are we achieving from this? They don't just tell me what my best case scenario is. Tell me what my worst case scenario is. Tell me what are the other options that we haven't explored. But within my control, because the real difficulty of any contested case is that you can never guarantee an outcome, you are dealing in a discretionary jurisdiction with another human being he's making a decision, you know, can't predict human beings. And so it's always I think you need to be completely confident, before you go, that really, this is your last resort, because I think then that slightly takes the pressure off, in terms of I didn't have an option, but to be here, you know. And then in terms of other sort of preparation, try and stay calm, definitely get emotional support is completely vital. You know, your lawyers are not there as emotional support. That's not what they are. And they're extremely expensive counselors, getting somebody who can be your emotional counselor to help you get through this, whether that's a divorce coach, whether that's a counselor, whether that's a therapist, whatever it is, that works for you, that can be there to give you the emotional support and the strategies, you know, and some clients will go through almost what you do in sports psychology, which is sort of imagine it before it's happened and try and kind of stay calm. And you know, what are your techniques going to be, if you're somebody that comes up and gets very stressed, all of that is really emotional support, that isn't actually what your lawyers are trained to help you with, you certainly should be saying to your legal team that, you know, I know you, they can't coach you on your answers, because they canceled during the show, we can't coach, but they can help you know, and they can give you some tips for what you should be looking at, I always say, revise, you know, go back over the papers, maybe the day before, have a plan in your mind, just like you would for an exam, I suppose, which is okay, I'm going to reread everything, so it's fresh in my head. And then maybe for the afternoon before court, and that evening, I am not going to think about this, I'm going to have a plan, I'm going to watch a rom com, I'm going to whatever it is to try and switch off, don't stress if you didn't get much sleep, but try. And when it comes to actually being there in the witness for direct your answers to the judge, remember, this is your opportunity for the judge to to look at you like a fellow human being and hear from you, and hear your voice in a way that they haven't before. I think I can say and I don't know if this is reassuring or not. But there's no magic. You know, it's not as if if I were going and being cross examined tomorrow, I would think, Oh, I'm going to a six I know what to do. I genuinely wouldn't know. And I'd be feeling stressed about it. So I think you really must be yourself. You know, quite often I'll get clients coming out for examination, and they'll say, Oh, that was awful. It was terrible. You know, I didn't say any of the things I wanted to say, you know, they pull me apart was terrible. And I'll say no, you came across really well. You're really genuine, you're yourself. The judge could see you for you. And I think also it's worth noting that some of the most effective cross examinations as barristers aren't allowed one, sometimes the kind of quiet reasonable ones are the ones that get the most effective answers. And fundamentally, what are we meant to be doing here as barristers were meant to be Yes, appliance case, but getting the facts out for the judge. So the judge can make a decision. So I guess I'd say, just get through it. And have an emotional support plan on either side. So that you know, when you're coming out of court, you've got somewhere to go, where there's people who love you, who are going to be there to support you. But always be satisfied that this really is somewhere you need to be because it must be a last resort court because a contested hearing is such a stressful experience.

Sara Davison: 23:51

Yeah, it is. And I really agree with your advisor, having somewhere afterwards to go because you can get really strong and prepare and revise and rehearse in your head. But when you're in there, and you've got somebody who's really going for you, and I've had experiences that it's so unnerving of putting, and I think when you come out, you might have got through it, okay. But then sometimes the wheels come off, and you do need a space to go because you can never anticipate exactly how you're going to feel afterwards. But you can be strong in the moment. But afterwards, sometimes I think it's only human to let your emotions out. So yeah, I really agree having that support around is important. And also, I suppose another difficult part of it is that you've then got to pay all the money for your barrister to be there and the court fees and then your lawyers and then the junior and then their travel expenses, and then everything else on top of it, which becomes extremely, extremely expensive just for that day or however many days you're there. So having a fixed fee. I'm thinking Whoo, that sounds really exciting. Can you tell me a bit more about how to fix the would work have we used your service because that to me sounds like a lifeline for so many people.

Samantha: 24:59

They reason that, you know, when we were obviously designing this, we had a blank sheet of paper thinking, Okay, what do we want to do? What is the opposite, right opposite of everything that's wrong in the current system. So buys couples together as the opposite, do it, you know, in a short timeframe, which is, you know, the average divorce takes 14 months, we do it. And we and all I say about delay before I need want to cost is that I'm sure loads of your listeners have seen the film marriage story. But it's such a brilliant rendition of everything that's kind of wrong with adversarial justice families. And what's really corrosive about delay, is that quite often couples will start in a space where their emotions are extremely roar. But fundamentally, they want to get to somewhere fair. And the longer that the process takes, particularly if you've got kind of solicitors letters getting back and forth, and, you know, tempers kind of being raised, the more that you fall out, and then the more that you kind of get this chasm between you that feels insurmountable. So actually getting to a place as quickly as you can, where at least you both know what fair looks like, not necessarily reaching a deal then or even starting to negotiate then, but just get into a space where you're like, Okay, well, at least neither of us now are going to start going to something that we can't achieve, you know, we know what's achievable. And maybe now we want to take our time to figure out exactly what we want to negotiate. But delay, I think is really a real problem with family justice, and costs. The other thing so you know, we currently have a system where if you have to each go two separate ways, and they charge you an hourly rate, they have no visibility on how much it's going to cost, because they don't know how the other side's going to behave. And they don't know, you know, most lawyers are quite hands on with the kind of, for me financial disclosure process, so they didn't know how many hours that's going to take. And so all you'll get a kind of very vague estimates, which aren't necessarily going to be kept. Because, you know, there's so many variables, so we're really keen to stop that happening. And the reason that we can do fixed fee is because there's so much within our control, you know, we're working with a couple together, we know that we're getting them to an advice rather than also negotiating on top of that, we are quite streamlined in that we help with the forming process. So we have an in house solicitor that will help both sides with the for me, but there was some bits. So we just say that you guys go, you know, you write down your bank balances. And you know, we don't do the bit that they don't need us to do. And we take the risk on fee. So when we get a couple of them, we'll think okay, how many hours do we think that's going to take in terms of in house time getting the displeasure together? What seniority of barrister do they need, you know, how complex is the case? Are they going to need a disclosure session and advice session or just an advice session, and then we work all of that out, we then present a fixed fee, and then it's on us. And, you know, if we happen to spend more time on that couple than we'd anticipated, then that's our issue. And but it means that the clients know what they're dealing with, and they can properly budget for it.

Sara Davison: 28:27

I think that's so important, because, you know, I've seen it so many sides, both myself, but also with my clients now uses the right, okay, this is the estimate, but as you said, estimates are literally a finger in the air guess as far as I can see, because I've never seen an estimate that we're stuck to. I've got clients right now really struggling because thinking it was gonna be a certain amount or budgeting a certain amount. Now they're gonna lose this serious chunk of their divorce settlement just to paste the law firm. And then the barristers. Maybe because they didn't understand the other layers, of course, because you might understand how much you will lawyer you're talking to is going to charge you an hour. But do you understand who else is involved in doing the work? So they've got billable hours as well as the photocopying Charges and all the other things which just as normal being, we don't know that you're going to get judged for those that we don't guess you kind of make sense, you're going to pay for the paper and time to photocopy I guess but you don't factor that in you're going on? Well, it's it's x amount an hour, so therefore it will be approximately this. So I think that can be a really damaging thing because it cuts even more stress when you're dealing with the more the costs coming in, the more the stress, the more the anxiety and you might not actually be moving any further forward with the actual divorce process.

Samantha: 29:42

You know, it's a nightmare for everyone involved. So I can say as kind of the barrister and you know, when I come in in cases and I, you know, I have cases where clients are spending, you know, 20% of their net assets on legal fees and you know that the amount that is being spent on legal fees is done. directly impacting the quality of housing they're getting on the other side, it's so stressful for the clients. But it's also so stressful when you're advising them because you're desperately trying to find a way out. And, you know, as I say, it's about this chasm if you've got to the point where both of you are kind of entrench. And the only way through that everyone can see is contested proceeded, there is no other way out. It's an absolute nightmare. And so it's so important, you know, from the get go to be thinking, financial cost, you know, what's proportionate to spend on this, you know, we need, and the other issue, I suppose, is that a lot of couples are being priced out of expertise, you know, and that's completely unacceptable, because this is a legal process, and you know, divorce has a lot going on, and you need a lot of different support. And I'm always saying, Please don't let the first person you call be a lawyer, you know, we need to be quite far down the list. But at some point, of course, all couples are entitled to get some legal advice, because these are really big decisions about your financial future, and more importantly, your arrangements for your children. And so we have a scenario where some couples are going to court simply because that's the only way they get to see a lawyer when they see the judge, you know, that supporting and so you know, there's so much that links into the need kind of early advice, and the need to make legal advice accessible, and also in bite sized chunks so that people can pay for what's proportionate for them, rather than necessarily having to go the whole hog and responding adversarial proceedings, or then having to represent themselves.

Sara Davison: 31:45

So if it's quite a straightforward divorce, then the fees would be much lower, I guess, then for someone that would be coming to you still for a fixed fee, but it would be more complex.

Samantha: 31:55

Yeah, say, Oh, absolutely. So I mean, our sort of entry level fee is 4750 pounds plus that for the couple, you know, and so, for couples with, you know, relatively straightforward financial situations, you know, that's a fee that they can share between the two of them. And it's still probably for some couples feels like a lot, but it's a fraction of what you're going to spend, if you go to separate lawyers. And then again, you know, we get couples with, I mean, 10s, and 10s, and 10s of millions of pounds that come and yeah, they'll need advice from silk. And, you know, we'll need to do their financial disclosure process quite carefully and work with experts, but because we're doing it collaboratively with the basis, and because they're sharing a lawyer, you know, inevitably it is much, much less than what they'd spend, if they're instructing, you know, two separate legal teams.

Sara Davison: 32:44

And then once you've given the advice, then what happens, then, if they agree, they can come back to you to get it all finalized legally, can they? And if they don't agree, what happens then?

Samantha: 32:53

Yeah, so what happens after the advices, we give couples for a week or so to digest. And then if they want to, they can have something called an aftercare session, which is me or with Harry, and we sit down with them together, and we go, okay, you know, let's talk about advice. How are you guys feeling? Where are you at? You know, and, and sometimes, I mean, so quite often, they turn around and get actually, you know, what, that's fine. Let's just turn that into a court order. And then we can do that for them do the drafting, again, on a fixed fee basis? Sometimes they'll say, look, you know, we've largely there, but we're stuck on one of the more discretion with that. We're trying to work that out. And so then I can try and help them bridge the gap. Or I can say, Well, look, you know, you might want to go to mediation for that. And we can recommend mediators to try and work that out. Or they can obviously go to solicitors, and have sort of expedited Roundtable, negotiation type process to sort out those last bits. And I mean, at some point, we are going to have couples he lifted up, you know, and storm off to court. And if they want to they can, because it's a confidential and privileged advice, we've not had that yet. But you know, that's okay. We're not imposing a decision on people. And sometimes, you know, I get some couples that come to me and say, oh, gosh, actually, but you know, isn't it better if you have the decision in place, because then you've got that certainty that there's going to be an outcome? The trouble is that research shows that if you have an outcome imposed on you, it's much, much harder to live with. So when the courts looked at those cases of retirements, so people coming back to court to change arrangements for their children, or to change their financial deal. It was, you know, the highest proportion of those are ones where they had an order imposed on them, because I mean, it makes sense. It's just so much harder to live with something if you think it's unjust. So I think it's actually crucial that when you start a process, you try and reach an agreement. And if you can't reach agreement, then yes, you have the court process. We have arbitration, which is better than court. You know, actually, ideally, if you can find something that you can both live with, and sign up to, that is a much better start, then you have invested in history. Yeah, I guess. And also, it helps you rebuild that relationship, because the damage isn't too deep, it hasn't been going on for too long. And the likelihood is that you can get into position where co parenting is easier because you've worked it out, you may not 100% agree, but at least you've compromised, you both have to compromise and come to something that you know, was a fair outcome with the minimum amount of pain, I guess, I mean, there's still going to be some pain, but it's a good way to move through from what is a really tough time to come into some resolution. Are you the only people that offer that in the UK? And if it listeners around the world? You know, I've got listeners all over the world? Where can they get this kind of support? Yeah, so we are at the moment, they were the Amy kind of regulated provider. And I think quite important when you're going for legal advice to know that it's a lawyer than it needs to be a solicitor or a barrister, and then they're regulated. Now in short, that's kind of crucial, because if you're going to rely on a place, you need to be able to see if it's wrong, but yeah, the moment we're the only people in England and Wales who offer this service, but I can't imagine that's going to carry on for that much longer. In other countries like Kenya, France, initially in the Netherlands, this is normal in the States, I don't think it's available yet is something that we're looking at, in the longer term, particularly to to bring it to California, but it's not available yet, as I understand it, but I again, you know, there is a real movement worldwide actually, in kind divorce in doing it better, you know, and an understanding that couples don't want to litigation states. So I would imagine this will become much more popular or, you know, versions of this will become available in other countries, too.

Sara Davison: 36:58

I really hope so, because my podcast is called heartbreak to happiness. And the court process certainly doesn't help you get to their happiness, in my experience, it can be adding a lot more pain onto the heartbreak and just puts the happiness of a bit longer. So I really, really admire you for the work you're doing, you are pioneering something, which is going to bring a lot more happiness to people's lives a lot more peace and calm in the divorce process. And hopefully, as you said about the stigma that's still associated to divorce, maybe we can really get rid of it once and for all and make it a much smoother process, human process kind of processes you say,

Samantha: 37:36

I so agree with the idea that we need to de stigmatize divorce. And, you know, there's lots of I'm reading a book at the moment, the 100 year life, you know, we're all going to be living for decades longer than we ever did, you know, and we've got to appreciate that our life will have transitions. And there will be transitions when it comes to careers will be transitions when it comes to personal relationships. And that's fine. And it doesn't mean that you know, you've made bad choices, it just means that some relationships have a shelf life. And it also means that you've then got opportunity to meet somebody else to have new adventures to reinvent yourself. And we just approach divorce in completely the wrong way. And any untangling of an emotional relationship is always going to be obsessing and hard and tough is going to be Daisy feels bad. But I think it's so important also to retain hope. And an understanding that this is normal, you know, 42% of marriages end in divorce, we've got to be able to navigate this well and navigate this kindly, because so many people get through it. And you know, I think the more that we can take the stigma take the bite out of divorce, the better. I agree with you. 100%. So what is happiness for us another with your business growing right now, what is happiness? This is such an interesting question, isn't it especially during pandemic, I think, you know, what, it's really made me reassess what happiness is what is important to me. Because I think if you don't ask me that, you know, 18 months ago, I would have said, you know, being on a beach, you know, with my children drinking a cocktail, you know, switching off with a nice and now it's simple pleasures, isn't it that we all crave. It's, you know, baking with my children. I am so awful at cooking. And yet, you know, Necessity is the mother invention. I had to buy these baking fix to get assigned to do you know, the weekend or just, you know, being able to see my family and go out for dinner with some friends and, you know, simple things. I started life, my career in a corporate law firm, and it had a very intense work culture that just didn't agree with me and so much of what I want to do now with my What is get balanced? And yes, do something that I find rewarding. And that's why the divorce has been so amazing for me personally, because I find it so rewarding, but also spend time with my family, you know, have time when I can to switch off, try and be strict with weekends, you know, and put mobile down. You know, and actually, if I can have a few hours, just kind of doing something nice for people. I love not looking at my phone. I'm pretty happy at the end of that.

Sara Davison: 40:30

Yeah, well, and you all making a massive difference, positive difference to people's lives with this new venture. I think it's amazing. I'm 100% behind you all the way. cheering you and Harry on I think it's amazing. So how do people find out more? They want to find out more about you? Where can they look?

Samantha: 40:48

Right? So they can look on the website, which is, you know, the divorce surgery.co.uk and which has lots of videos as well and kind of quote, I can't watch them, but videos of me and all sorts of information on there. And also we have so to Front of House team, our two non lawyers who have the Claire and Natalie, you will talk to him. He wants to know more, they can become free guidance calls if they want to at a time that works for them. Because it's quite important when you talk about this, but it's very private, but it's a time that works for you. And then if they want to take it further, obviously they can look in for introductory sessions. We've also done loads and loads of articles in, you know, as you you know, media publications. And so probably if you Google my name, The Divorce Surgery, it will come up loads of other stuff that you can dive into if you'd like to.

Sara Davison: 41:42

Yeah, well, I know you've won every award going and you deserve it as well, because this really is something new and it's about time and it's hopefully going to be just the very start of a big shake up of the family system in the UK to make it a more peaceful kind of process. I think everyone would appreciate that. So thank you so much. Thank you for being a guest on the show. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. That's it for today's episode. So do head on over to thedivorcesurgery.co.uk To find out more about what Samantha and Harry are up to. And I look forward to you joining me on our next episode.

Intro: 42:22

That's it for today's episode of heartbreak to happiness, head on over to iTunes and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week that posts a review in iTunes will win the chance in the grand prize drawing to win a private VIP day including exclusive one on one coaching with Zahra Davison herself. Be sure to head on over to heartbreak to happiness podcast.com and pick up a free copy of SARS gift, then join us on the next episode.