Why Smart, Successful Women Stay in Toxic Relationships

Why do so many smart, accomplished, and successful women stay in toxic relationships? In this powerful episode of Heartbreak to Happiness, Sara Davison is joined by Lindsay Abernathy, host of the Bitch Is a Bad Word podcast, to uncover the hidden dynamics of emotional abuse, coercive control, and narcissistic relationships.

Drawing from her own lived experience, Lindsay shares how abuse can exist behind the façade of a picture-perfect life, why leaving is rarely as simple as it seems, and the subtle red flags that often go unnoticed. Together, Sara and Lindsay explore trauma bonds, love bombing, gaslighting, post-separation abuse, co-parenting with a toxic ex, and how survivors can reclaim their confidence, voice, and sense of self.
If you've ever questioned your reality, wondered whether you're "overreacting," or felt trapped in an unhealthy relationship, this conversation offers clarity, validation, and hope. Lindsay also shares practical advice for healing, rebuilding your support system, and creating a peaceful life after abuse.

In this episode, you'll discover:

• Why intelligent, capable women can become trapped in toxic relationships
• The warning signs of coercive control, gaslighting, and love bombing
• How abuse impacts children—and why peace matters more than appearances
• Strategies for co-parenting with a high-conflict or narcissistic ex
• How to rebuild your confidence, identity, and future after leaving

This is an honest, empowering conversation for anyone seeking freedom from toxic relationships—and proof that healing, happiness, and a brighter future are possible.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome to the Heartbreak to Happiness Show with Sarah Davidson. If you're struggling with a breakup and you feel shocked, angry, betrayed, devastated, or sad and alone, then this podcast is for you. Best-selling author and award-winning host, Sarah Davidson, shares how you too can get on with your life to heal, grow, and move from heartbreak to happiness.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

A pathological person, I think, sometimes like doesn't think big picture. I've just sort of seen it with so many people I've talked to. They only see the child as the manipulative, like pawn that they can manipulate on the chessboard right now. And I don't think they see them that one day they're gonna grow up and figure this shit out on their own. And so if you can subscribe to that big, bigger theory, like the longer game, then you can start saying, like, I don't need to combat everything that they come back saying. I don't have to defend myself and everything that they say. The kids will start learning just based on like every single time I'm at one parent's house, it's calm, there's no shouting, there's no fighting, they're not asking me eight billion questions. That's the other thing. Like, they don't need to come home. You don't need to be like, what did you eat? What did you do this? Because you have to imagine that as soon as they go back to the other parent, that per parent is mining them for information to use against you in whatever way. So they've already spent a lot of time being asked a lot of questions that a child that's young doesn't need to be dealing with. So I've sort of said, okay, they come back and I say nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Here's your host, Sarah Davison.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Welcome back to the show. And now today I am super excited because I have an amazing guest, and her name is Lindsay Abernathy. Now you will know her as the unapologetic voice behind Bitch is a bad word podcast, which I've been a guest. It's absolutely fabulous. It's a raw and riveting podcast defining what it means to survive and thrive after abuse. So I am super excited to have Lindsay as my guest today.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Welcome, Lindsay, to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's amazing to see you again. You are such a delight, and I've been like really looking forward to this conversation for a month now.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

I know, my goodness. Oh my goodness. It is so exciting to have you on. We had such a good chat when I was on your podcast, bitch is a bad word, which I absolutely love. Um, so let's start there, shall we? Tell us, tell us a little bit about the podcast and what you do on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Well, we are a podcast that focuses on domestic abuse, toxic relationships, what the signs are. And I really want to teach women who are listening the things I wish I had known. And what I'm doing is building what we call this bestie toolkit. So if you were in my situation when I was going through it, a lot of us don't realize that we're actually in an abusive relationship until it gets like elevated to the end. And then you're like, wait, what am I actually in? Whether it's been emotional or coercive or it didn't quite get physical yet. You spend a lot of time, or what I learned is I spent a lot of time in many years going, like, this doesn't sit right, it doesn't feel good, but I don't know what it is. And so it wasn't until I Googled, am I in an abusive relationship and like checked 10 out of 10 boxes, was like, oh, wait, hold on, this is what this is. And in my situation, things did get physical, but for a very long time, it was just a lot of confusion and you know, not in bad words, as we say. And so when I finally had the realization that like what I was in and I needed to get out, I found that the information available was a little antiquated and things felt very sterile, sort of like you know, you're walking into like you know, a doctor's office, and and you're like, hi, I might be, I'm wondering, am I abused? And the words were so big. And I'm a very intelligent woman, but I'm also just like I like to pull like to say it straight. And so the word coercive control. I'm like, what? I don't even know what the hell that means. And I was so everything I was like googling, and everything felt huge and big, and you know, maybe it comes from a point too, like you don't want to admit it yet, and you're just not there. So I was inspired to create a show that really broke it down to the lowest common denominator. If you were just scrolling through Instagram, you might hear something on our, you know, our feed or whatever that makes you go to the actual show. But for five seconds, you can listen to us, and I'm gonna tell you something that I think will track. So that's just the basis of it. And then the name is really important to me because I was called a bitch by my ex in front of our young young son. And he looks at me later, it was just like a custody exchange. We were no longer together, and he's like, Mama, what's a bitch? And I was like, Oh my god, I was so gutted, Sarah. Like, um, and I just said, Well, buddy, bitch is a bad word. And I have it here. He like, I leave inspirational notes on post-its like for all my kids and everywhere, and he wrote this on a post-it note.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

And it says, bitch is a bad word for those of you listening on audio. Yeah, and it's spelled B-I-C-H-Baseball cat.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yes, and so he wrote this on a post-it note, and I just like put it on a hat. But he spells bitch B-I-C-H, and he spells word W-E-R-D, which tells you just like how like innocent and young and you know he was. And it just I just felt like I don't know what I'm gonna do with that, but I want you to remember always, buddy, like bitch is a bad word unless you're using it to empower yourself. As you know, we can use it, but you can't.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

I love that. I love that, and I I think sometimes our kids actually give us the greatest lessons through this, don't they? Because you know, I think sometimes when you listen to their point of view or you see the innocence in it, it gives us our strength, right? I think for me getting through my divorce, if I didn't have my son, who was only one at the time, I probably wouldn't have got out of bed. But given he was one, I didn't have much of a choice. How did your son help you through your breakup?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Well, honestly, what I realized is that there was many, many years of just toxic situations, and our house was really toxic, our home and environment was really toxic. We were um extraordinarily wealthy, I'll just say that. Like we had it so it on the outside, we looked like we had it all, you know, nice cars, nice vacations, nice houses. And that perception was not really the reality. And I think I subscribed to the perception for a really long time, and that sort of lent like to the notion that, well, how can I be abused? I'm not, there's not like some guy in a wife beating t-shirt with like a bottle of Budweiser, you know, like sitting in his recliner in a trailer park. Like we live in a really nice neighborhood in a really nice house, and we go to the country club. Like, this isn't abuse, it can't be me. And so I think for a long time I realized like I fooled myself into thinking. And a lot of times as we're learning in the power and control wheel, this love bombing occurs. So anytime there was something bad, I was like rewarded with something really nice, maybe jewelry or a trip or whatever. So I was kind of like, well, I gotta be grateful for this. Look what I have. But what I started realizing is there was one the night that I left, all my kids heard some really horrible things. And in that moment, I realized I as the kids are getting older, some of them have already seen a lot that they shouldn't have seen. They've heard a lot. I'm looking at them going, what the hell are you doing? You're either gonna turn them into somebody like this, or you're gonna turn them into somebody who accepts something like this. So there, you have to go, and you have to go now. And I I had no safety plan, Sarah. So I always say, do not do what I did. Like I just bolted. Um, the next day, no real plan, no real. I had a friend, thank God, who helped me get into a hotel. Um, but I left really fast, really quickly. But to to what I see is that I saw those young kids and I heard like I just I just decided to like own what I was in and realize that I can save them. And that's my responsibility as a parent. That's what I have to do. I have to save their sanity. And like my my kids, I have an older daughter at the time. I mean, she just maybe a few months later was like, Thank you so much for leaving. Wow. And I was like, that's all I need to know. And then I see now after being out for a couple years, a few years, it's like I see the peace restored. I see, you know, same thing. Like, there's many times, like if I'm in court or I'm dragged through this, or there's still post-separation abuse, there was litigant abuse, there's, you know, 10 million taxes from my ex D of like just horrible things. I have to like look at my kids and the same thing. I have to get out of bed. I have to go figure this out. I I I can't sit here and let it consume me. And there's a lot of times where I'm like, I talk to women a lot, and they say, I'm like, just as if you had cancer, you don't have to say ever again in your life you're a survivor of domestic abuse. You don't have to be a victim of domestic abuse. If it if it doesn't work for you in your narrative and your mind, then don't use it. And so for me, going out and advocating and realizing like I have a story and I have a voice that could potentially just uh change the life of one person, then I need to use that. But I can also sit on many times and be like, I don't have to sit in the victimhood of what I'm going through. I can just say this was a piece of my part, like a piece of my story. But I have to get up every single day for my kids and be like, we're we're we're okay. We're gonna be okay, we're safe, I got you. And you know, I love my whole family dynamic. I love being a mom. It's like one of my greatest joys and greatest pleasures. So when I just look at them and being like, I see the resilience, I see that they're oh, sorry, I see that um I see how good they can be when they're in an environment that is just less hectic. I I'm I don't live in the big house, I don't have the nice car, I don't have the trips anymore, but I have so much peace and we have each other and this love um that I wouldn't trade for like any Range Rover on the planet.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Oh, I know that, and I know that that is gonna resonate with so many people listening because I hear it too all the time, and I know from my experience the bond with your child is yeah, as a single parent, a lot of people worry about being a single parent, don't they? I know that's one of the things that I worried about was I don't know if I can cope on my own, I don't know if I can be a mum and then do all the dad stuff and and just do everything. That's a huge responsibility, and I've only got one child, right? And I know you've got more than one, so you know it's it's a big responsibility, but actually it is, I think, the best job in the world, it's the most rewarding job in the world, and when you see that they are happy again and the peace, in fact, for me, when I'm coaching my clients, I often say, Yeah, we'll do more for our kids than we'll ever do for ourselves. And sometimes when you when I have clients who are just really understandably broken and crying and not able to even get out of bed or do the things, the daily routine that they need to. If I flip the focus from do it for you to do it for your kids, because like you say, that we are their role model, they're watching everything we do, they're learning what is a healthy dynamic in a relationship by watching what you're doing with your partner and how that that dynamic is working. And so, do you want them to learn that love is all those things that you you were saying your kids had seen and witnessed and heard, even if we want to protect them, they're gonna hear it, they're gonna feel it on some level, however much we try and hide it. So I think it's really, really powerful what you did to sort of get up and go. And I think a lot of us our motivation is to do it for the kids more for ourselves. Is that how you felt? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I did, I really did, because I stayed for a long time thinking that um a family together was better than a family broken. And in my situation, I'd already been divorced once. I had two kids from a first marriage, and I came from a quote unquote broken home, which I want to abolish that statement for the rest of my life. Like, stop, it's not broken, it's just shifted in a dynamic. And so for a long time, I was like, I am never gonna get divorced. Well, I got divorced the first time, you know, I'm never gonna do what my parents did. Well, I did it. And what I then I got into this next relationship, which, you know, I like to say, especially for your listeners, is that I hadn't I had not healed from my first relationship. And my first relationship was also toxic. And then I was sort of ripe for the taking as an empath, as a woman with lower self-confidence, because I had these two kids, and like I have like who's gonna take me? Excuse me, I should just be grateful for like anyone who would just like take this spinster with like the all these that's baggage. And a narcissist or a toxic person or a pathological person will weaponize that. They will use that to their advantage. And that's what happened in my situation, where it's like, I'm saying all my fears, my greatest weaknesses, all the things I'm afraid, and they're like, I've got you. You know, I, you know, I love that you're a mom, I love that you're this, you know, let me let me help you, let me heal you, let me keep you, let me, you know, do all these things for you. And so I sort of I gave my power away to somebody who later ended up weaponizing it. And I realized in that moment I had sort of just I I shifted, I left one relationship because it wasn't healthy, and I moved right into another relationship that was worse. And where I like to take ownership and is that like I wasn't I wasn't healed, I didn't do the work I needed to do. And so I put I was kind I was a setting sitting duck, I was a target for somebody like this. And so I I spent a lot of years living in again, not knowing if I was what am I in? He just says mean things, he just is kind of an asshole. He you know, he says some things that hurt my feelings, or you know, and it obviously and it always will, I'll say this for your listeners, it will escalate eventually. It's a supply and demand situation. So once you stop accepting the bad words and it doesn't hurt you anymore, they have to up the annie. So just understanding that in a in an abusive or you know toxic relationship, that's what it is. But I stayed for the kids. I stayed like, I I can't, I can't do this. I can't, I can't imagine doing all these, all these roles, have all these kids on my own, and and I felt like a failure. Um and what I realized is that you know, you don't want to sit in a position ever where you know you you are a a failure and um or you're feeling as if you're a failure, but really understanding that the per the dynamic that you were in, or the person that you're with is who failed you. And I think like seeing it flipping it for the other way, like oftentimes as women as mom, we're like, we lost it, we failed, we did all these things. But really, it's like you were failed by a person who was intending to hurt you. So long-winded answer to the question of you know, the things that I do are for my kids. And what I realized is I stayed longer than I should have, but we healed. You know, when I finally left, when I finally got out, and I and I say, if you're a woman that's in a domestic abuse right now, you there's no like shame in staying. You know, the average woman leaves seven times and goes back. I left multiple times and came back for various reasons. I didn't have any money, or I felt like, oh God, I'm taking the kids, or maybe you know, they're nice again, so we can get back and we can do this. I spent a lot of time um going back and forth. And so when you and I stayed for the kids. But what I realized is like one, and I can only say this now with the clear, you know, hindsight, is that the kids just need stability. They don't need to have two toxic parents or like a bad relationship, or you know, they just need they need to have a routine, they need to know what to expect. And when you're in an abusive or toxic home environment, they have no idea what's coming next. Everyone's walking on eggshells, the environment is really heavy and hard. So when you remove that, you can start seeing the thriving. And the kids, I I don't know where I saw this. I think probably I mean, on obviously on Instagram, but it's like kids learn love not necessarily by seeing you in a romantic relationship with somebody. They see love in in ways that you know you care for yourself or you love them or you love yourself, and they they can model it. They can, I mean, I have a I have a daughter, an older daughter who graduated from Berkeley, smart woman, and she's in a healthy relationship. So it's like it worked, it works out, you know?

SPEAKER_04 17:33

Yeah, well done. That's amazing. Uh it's always great when you go and you see that your kids have adopted the morals and values of the healthy parent rather than the one that's dysfunctional and unhealthy and toxic because it's difficult, it's difficult, and we worry a lot, don't we? We want to protect them from everything, but ultimately, in most in many dynamics, the kids have to go in between the homes. So even when you're not with them, they are going between the homes, and hopefully, it's safe for them to do so. But we see even when it's not safe, I was campaigning in parliament yesterday, and um Claire Throssell was talking um at the event that I was at, and Claire Throssell is an amazing woman and she's incredible. You may have seen her on socials, um you'll see her on mine because she's coming on my podcast soon. But she she uh she said, you know, my children are at risk. She was separated, she was talking about her kids being at risk, Jack and Paul. And the authorities knew that he he was dangerous, there was evidence, the boys had said it, the teachers at school had reported it. It was a big thing everyone had said, but he was still, by the judge, ordered to have unsupervised access for five hours a week. And at one of those times he took them into the loft, poured petrol everywhere, and set high fire to the house, and the two boys died in her arms. It was honestly yesterday one of the most moving experiences because she was telling her story, but she is so strong, she's been campaigning forever, and recently she's been heading up the campaign with women's aid. And over here we have a presumption of contact, which is that kids should spend 50% of time with each parent, which is great, and what we would want if they were both healthy, right? Not toxic. But where it's domestic abuse is involved, that's always been a bit of a chow, a huge challenge. So we actually a lot of the campaigners, and and obviously Claire is leading that, um, we've managed to get that overturned now. So it's so we we've made great strides and progress, thanks to Claire and her work on behalf of her sons. But this is one of the challenges, isn't it? We see children having to manage that, and if they take the healthy values of kindness and morality and empathy, which are key, then you know we know we've done a good job. But sometimes it's not that easy, is it? Sometimes they're spending time with that ex and they they do show signs of that. How how do you talk to that?

SPEAKER_01 19:57

You know, I think what's important that I the important lesson that I've learned just from speaking to so many experts. I have, you know, I I like to say I have all I have no letters behind my name except for CPTSD. And I so I bring on all then. I didn't realize that was your name. But I can join that club. So I'm like, we have letters behind our names, Sarah. And so I bring on all the experts that have all the letters, and I ask that same question, and they all have the same response in in in some way or another. That it's every single time your child comes back to you, if they can come the they come back to the safe home, the safe parent, the loving parent, also recognizing that your child is going to come home dysregulated. So I had to learn, because again, I didn't know what I was dealing with. I'm like, my kids are coming back emulating the other person or saying things that are not nice, or you know, they're being and I was I was triggered because I hadn't healed some parts of me. So it was like triggering, and then like, what the heck, you know, what's happening? So what I realized is like your kids are gonna come back dysregulated, they're going to come back confused. If you have a parent who is a master in coercive control, they they want to start, you know, brainwashing and and alienating certain parts of their brain to make you, you know, you the bad guy. It's you know, if they hadn't done this, and my kids would come back with all sorts of stories, and I'd be like, that's not true, that didn't happen. Like, what do you mean? No, no. And so what I what I realized is I just have to just allow it to flow. And they're a pathological person, I think, sometimes like doesn't think big picture. I've just sort of seen it with so many people I've talked to. They only see the child as the manipulative, like, pawn that they can manipulate on the chessboard right now. And I don't think they see them that one day they're gonna grow up and figure this shit out on their own. And so if you can subscribe to that big Big bigger theory, like the longer game, then you can start saying, like, I don't need to combat everything that they come back saying. I don't have to defend myself in everything that they say. The kids will start learning just based on like every single time I'm at one parent's house, it's calm, there's no shouting, there's no fighting, they're not asking me eight billion questions. That's the other thing. Like, they don't need to come home. You don't need to be like, what did you eat? What did you do this? Because you have to imagine that as soon as they go back to the other parent, that parent is mining them for information to use against you in whatever way. So they've already spent a lot of time being asked a lot of questions that a child that's young doesn't need to be dealing with. So I've sort of said, okay, they come back and I say nothing. I just give them hugs. And we're like, we're hugging. And a lot of times they want to sit on the couch, they want to snuggle, they want just, you know, 150 snacks, and we just do things. And I I stopped even asking, like, how is your time? Because like that's a really hard question for just an adult to answer sometimes. Like, how is your day? Well, fuck horrible. I don't know. They were like, but then some parts were really good. There's 24 hours in those days. Like, not all of them were horrible, but not so you're you're asking these big questions to kids that just they don't know, they don't know the answer. They just, I think they have to just they know, but they do know they have if you can sharpen their intuition, if you can just sharp it, like knowing that every single time they come home, you're predictable and you're safe, they're gonna figure it out on their own.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Yeah, because it'll feel more safe, even if we're not verbalizing. I think you know, it's obviously important not to bad mouth the other parent or say, Well, that's wrong. Here we do it differently because that you know, you can get yourself into all sorts of difficulties if you do that. Um, I know people may want to do that, and it may actually be true, and you can definitely voice that without the kids around to family and friends, but actually with your kids, it is more as you say, just by setting a different example, by having a different environment in your home.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

I Well, also on that, Sarah, I want to say what's really what I think people have to understand what's fascinating about when you start learning what these people, and I like I use this term because Dr. Nay, uh Nadine Macaluso uses this term. She calls them pathological people. I'm like, this crazy ass person, she's like, okay, no, they're pathological. This is the, you know, they made narcissism, that word is being overused, just like I'm a product of like the 90s, and we everybody was a psychopath. You know, oh, he's such a psycho. But like, what does that really mean? How many people are actually like have psychopathy? We who knows. But what she was, she oh the what the advice is these kind of people like to imagine that they're disrupting your world. That's their entire goal, is to disrupt you. And this person doesn't like you. Your co-parent doesn't like you. So the worst version that you ever received of them while you were together is what you're gonna most likely get for the rest of your life. So, what's the point? What are you trying to do? I think I spent I spent so much time spinning my wheels, being like, but no, I that's not how it happened. I'm not that person. Like, da-da-da-da-da. It doesn't, they they love that. They're like, ha, look at you, you're excited. Oh, I'm getting you, I'm I'm getting your goat, you're you know, that's their entire goal. So if you start going to a place of just like completely indifferent, not showing them any emotion. I say this a million times. If you can go to a talking parent app, no, as much as no contact as you can, do it. But even when they're coming back and your kids are like parroting things that they've said, or you know, oh, all we did was stay up until two o'clock in the morning eating ice cream and we did whatever, just understanding that it's that parent's goal is to like get you upset. Yeah, so you have to just be like, okay, and and and even going, well, we don't do that, and they miss their bedtime, and you want to be like sending a million messages like, why were they awake? Like they're going, ha ha, I got you. Because they don't love that. I love it. Because they don't they're they don't think the way you and I think, Sarah. They're not thinking in the best interest of the child, they're not capable. They like going back to that empathy, they don't have it, they don't understand the kids are tools, they're pawns, that's it. And so, which is sad, because like if you don't think of your kids that way, uh anytime I think of somebody thinking of my kid as like a piece, like an object, I'm pissed. But that's how they're thinking, right? So if you just know I'm not gonna, I'm gonna be completely indifferent, you are going to win every single time. And when your kids come back and they download all this stuff, take take a five-minute break. It's you're getting and and notice I'm angry, my blood is boiling, I'm getting like I just want to and don't send the message or send it to yourself. I started sending messages to myself, like text mess, like writing the unhinged text message and then but descending it to me, and then I'm like, oh, it feels the same.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

I love that. I love that. Send it to yourself as a really good piece of advice. I really think it is. I think also sometimes you know, kids will come back and they might share something, and it's it's it's really hard sometimes not to want to text and say, I've just heard this, or something's just come up and this doesn't work for me, or you know, what do you mean you're taking them out of school for a day and uh on your time, you know? And you have to really be careful because obviously, you know, if your child is opening up and talking to you, then you don't really want to be sharing the fact that they're doing that because that could lead to negative consequences, or not should will lead to negative consequences for them. So there's also that line as well to manage, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Right, exactly. Well, and that's that's kind of the issue, too, is that you sit here in a situation with the responsibility that you have as the protective parent, and when you can when you can earn the trust, because it's all about trust with your children, right? It's all about really where they feel safe. So sometimes, like, if they don't want to come back and talk to you about anything, if they're just like, you we're like our inclination is to pry because you're like, you know, you read it on their face, you're like, I want to know what happened. Something happened. What is it? Did anything? They're gonna come to you eventually, or they're gonna be able to like work through it on their own, but you they need to be able to trust you. So if everything that you they tell you, you run back to the other parent, remembering this, even if you think it's like in the best interest of the child, that parent is storing this in in their database. When the kid comes back, they're gonna they're gonna be like, Why'd you tell your mom? You know, they're gonna flip the script, they're gonna use it, they're gonna again. I always like to imagine like they're mining the the the parts of the story that suit their narrative. Yeah, so then your kid's gonna come back confused. Your kid's gonna come back not understanding, you know, the difference, like who's safe. And well, I you you know, but dad said it this way, and now I'm confused. Confusion is the name of the game. If they can keep you confused, they can keep you controlled. And they do the same with the kids. And as your kids get older, what I've seen just personally from experience, because I have kids that are as young as like eight, all the way to 20 something, that when they reach an age where they can no longer really be manipulated by Disneyland or candy or you know, a toy, the other the pathological person, the narcissist, starts to sort of back off. They start they they're like, wait, this isn't working anymore. I can't just buy you I can't buy ice cream, like ice cream isn't the currency anymore. Because that what the kids want is they want love and they want consistency and they want truth and they want, you know, that's what they need. So true.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

So true. Being that parent is like your best best and you thought there as well about narrative, and I love this word, right? Because I didn't get this when I was in several toxic relationships, and it used to drive me mad how after an event they would change what actually happened. So it was absolutely nothing to do with what I thought had happened or the way it played out, and I hadn't done the things they were saying I'd done, or it wasn't my intention to come across that way. If you know, and and it was it was so confusing because you'd be like, we were both at the same event, or we both went through that period together, and yet you're saying this is the truth, and yet I know that it didn't happen that way. And then when I learned that they recreate the narrative to suit the story that they need to live with in that moment, so that they're still the hero of their own story, so that they're still you know the big person, and that you know, we're in the wrong, and there's no no blame for them, then it starts to sink in, doesn't it? That it becomes more you can manage it when you understand it. When you don't understand it, it's just confusing. Like you say, you're jumping around trying to figure out, well, why are you saying that? And this is frustrating, and you might want to text them or you know, you could spend more money with you know legal services trying to put your case across because that's not true. But when you realize this is a tactic, changing the narrative to suit what they want the story to be is commonplace, is a common tactic, right? That's how they work.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Well, they gaslight you so much you start gaslighting yourself. And what I realized is that is such it's a it's a negative sum game. They don't care about what you think, they don't care about how you feel. They really want to just get supply from you, and so in any way that they can get supply, and and that may that word may be you know new to somebody, and you have to liken it to uh just the dopamine, the drug, whatever it is. And like people who don't have this need to get the supply, it's hard to unfathom. Just like you're saying, you're like, wait, we were both at the same event, this is exactly what happened. I was like remembering, I I knew what I was wearing, I knew what I was drinking, I knew who was there. I'm like, I could have literally picked put everybody up in a lineup and I could have picked everybody out, but then our stories never matched. The feeling never matched, the argument that came up later didn't under didn't make any sense. And so then I'm sitting here, I could I would spend hours and hours ruminating, and then you're coming back going, okay, hold on. Um you said that I said this, but I didn't. What I did, what I said is this, and and I didn't well, and if I said it, I didn't mean it. And what I really meant, I want to try to make you understand. Let me help you. Uh uh, and you're literally like they are looking at you, and they're like, it's a liked to just like a meth addict on a pogo stick. Yeah, and you're sitting there and they're like nothing matters, blah blah blah. That's all they hear. But what they get is an internal satisfaction of supply, they're getting your like blood boiling, which is feeding their narcissistic supply because they just don't have, they can't create it on their own. They don't, yeah, they don't produce it. So they need to get it from someone. So what they do is they create these false narratives, they create these stories. Word salad is like another term we hear a lot. And you're like, wait, wait, I don't understand anything that you've just said. And you start questioning your own reality, you start questioning your own intelligence, your own. So you're you're sort of dealing. I have to, I always kind of switch back and look. Oh, I'm sort of dealing with like a man baby. I'm I'm dealing with somebody who doesn't have the emotional intelligence and doing anything but like going, you know, throwing bad words at you, or you know, they just sort of like throw spaghetti at the wall and see what you're gonna react to. And it's extremely frustrating. And you're going to spend so much of your time and your emotional emotional energy trying to convince somebody of something that like even if they admitted it, you're never gonna feel good when they're finally like, okay, yeah, I did it. Then what's the goal? You're gonna be like, wait, so then you're gonna be more upset that they admitted that they did it on purpose or like they did it to hurt you. So when you start seeing these like little I like to tell people like the flag, the first flag that they throw, that first red flag, even if it's pink, we need to walk away. Because even when you see that first time, like, hmm, like that's they're not congruent. Like the things that they say don't really match up, or you know, they start confusing you sort of a little bit, that's gonna get worse and worse and worse the longer you stay. So I would say like the the power that you have and the control that you have is just sort of going to your phone, a notes app, something that's safe. If you have if you're capable of journaling, journal. And I had a woman on my show who's like, yeah, you really actually need to journal it and then burn it for safety, but also for like emotional energy for it to just like leave your universe. So write it down because they are gonna gaslight you, they're going to flip the script. But I'm telling you to write it down, not so that you can run to them with your book and be like, on October 31st, 1972, this is what you said to me. And you're wrong, you know, like that's not the point. Because again, if we just start getting like wrapping our heads around and coming to the acceptance, the radical acceptance, that they don't give a fuck, yeah, we're gonna be better. So but you need to know, you need to have a place that you can go to save your sanity and go, okay, this is exactly what happened. So, like any kind if you're still in the relationship or you're still co-parenting, write it down. Write down the the the bad incident, write down the moment because when they flip the script, which they will, you can at least go back to it and be like, okay, I know I'm not crazy.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

But it's hard to spot the science, it's not easy. I mean, I I think you know, we've both been through this, and we both you know, speak to myself relatively intelligent, obviously, you are, and I'm just like we sit there and we and we we go through these relationships, and we think, well, hang on a second, how did I get into this relationship? Because when I met this person, it was great, like there were no red flags. They seemed to be really kind, they listened a lot, they were, you know, like you said, promising you a lot of safety for the things that you might have been worried about or vulnerable about. Um, and you know, most of the time they're great. You know, that incident on its own, isolated if you look at it, may not be something huge. It may not, you know, it's it may not be a black eye, it could be they they put me down or made me feel uncomfortable when I said, Oh, I might might do this. They that you know, for work it would be good for me, and they go, Oh, well, you're pushing yourself a little bit too hard, don't you think? It could be little comments which on their own they don't stack up as as abuse, right? Because abuse is consistent and persistent. But you know, how do people, if they're in there and they're listening to us, they're going, Lindsay, I I I get what you're saying, but how do I know if this really is abuse or maybe it's me, maybe it's these small things I should just be a bit more tolerant of. Maybe I'm just maybe I am just a bit stupid, maybe I am just, you know, it is my fault. Because by the end of a relationship, you usually believe it is your fault because that's what you're told every day.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

You said it when you were speaking, it they're not bad all the time. And Dr. Romani, who, if you're listening, you've not heard of her, go check her out. It'll completely like re-rewire you, change you. What she likens it to, and she has this term, it's intermittent reinforcement. An abuser or toxic person is not bad all the time. They couldn't be. Because if it was bad all the time, you would leave because you are a smart woman, you are intelligent, like you have self-worth, right? So if they were, if they sat down on the first date and punched you in the face, one million percent, like unless that's your kink, you would leave. You would be like, I'm not putting up with this. Or if they just started screaming vulgarities at you, you would get up and you would leave. They don't start off that way because they're charming, they are wearing the mask, they are they what they are taking inventory of you. And I think that one of the things that you need to, if you're sitting, you know, this is your first day and you're going on, you've been like, I'm on a few dates with this person, take notice to see, are they talking about themselves or are they asking you a million questions and you're confusing that curiosity for like, oh, they're so into me. They're not they're they're all they they're so into me. Oh my god, they're asking me my whole life story. No, they're taking inventory and they're storing it away in what I call their little narc vault, and they're gonna weaponize it against you later. But you don't want to believe that in that moment, though, because you think this is what Disney tells us we should wait for, and it's all happening, and it's fantastic. Look at look what every Disney princess did to herself, they all changed who they were for a man.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Like, like Ariel literally like left her family.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

The the Disney culture is what's sort of like screwing us, like this prince charming. But what you'll notice with these people is that they are they're extremely charming. You just like you can't believe it. Like they're just so romantic, and they're giving you it's it's love bombing. They want to give you these. So if you're getting like extravagant gifts, if you're getting like these extravagant situations, and the other thing that I like to have people think about is like if you're getting those butterfly feelings, that's literally your nervous system telling you to run. We are not meant to feel like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, dysregulated when you meet somebody. When I met my current partner who is an amazing person, safe person, I didn't get butterflies, and then I was bored as fuck. I was like, what? I mean, and not with him, and I say that now because if you listen to my show, like he's I wasn't bored with him, but my butt, I was like, well, this doesn't feel like it normally does. Like, this doesn't feel all crazy and hectic, and we're not like in these entanglements, and you know, it just sort of felt like very safe. Safe is boring, just so you know, your body's not having those butterflies. But also, as the relationship progresses, if you find that you're in a relationship that's toxic or becoming abusive, they're not bad all the time. So going back to this intermittent reinforcement, it is like playing the slot machine. If you put five dollars in the slot machine and you lost that five dollars, most regular people would be like, ah, I lost, and they walk away.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

The slot machine, you put in five dollars and it gives you a nickel back, you're like, oh, well, let's just play it again. You know, I got something out of it. I got a little bit, and so an abusive person is gonna be really nice, overly nice, way too nice, and then they're gonna be mean. And then they're gonna be nice, and then they're gonna be mean, and then they're gonna be nice, and so again, designed to keep you confused so they can control you, but they also are just a they're not bad all the time. So, and then these moments, and you know, if you just reference the power and control wheel, the moments of love bombing, and then there's like a point of contention or something that bad happens, and then there's you know the silent treatment, like all the things that they do, when they come back to the love bombing, the love bombing stage can happen like in 10 minutes, or can happen in two weeks, or it can happen in six months. Like they don't typically in in my personal situation, there was so many moments that were not, it wasn't bad all the time. So then you're looking at them like when they show you, like after the mask is slipped, because that's what it is, they're just conning you, they're con men, they're wearing a mask. When the mask comes back on in those moments that they're like, oh shit, I gotta be good again. You're like, wait, there he is. What do I have to do to keep him? What I must be doing something. What can I change in myself right now to keep this person like this all the time? Yes. And that's the that's the plot twist. You can't.

SPEAKER_04 42:18

That's very well said. That's exactly what it's like. The mask slips, and then you're like, I can't bear this. You retract, you move away, and then suddenly they come back at you, either apologizing or telling you you got it wrong, or whatever it takes to get you back in, or just ignoring it, right? I mean, there's so many times where it's just you go to bed and it's been horrendous, you've had huge arguments. The next morning it's like breakfast, darling, and everything's great, and they're singing in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

That's the worst thing. That is honestly the most mind-fucking thing ever. Because you're like, wait, what did I didn't sleep all night? Meanwhile, they're like completely snoring, you're up all night, like ruminating the whole time, and then they get up in the morning, they're like, the same thing, hey darling.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

I know, it's crazy, and I think then then you think, well, it must have been me because look, they're that they're okay now, but also you don't want to rock the boat then because everything's great, and you're like, This is exactly what I wanted, that back to be normal, this is what a relationship should be like. I don't want to say anything because I don't want to go back, because you don't want to say anything, but there in itself is a problem that you cannot express how you feel because you're worried of repercussions all the time. So if you you kind of find that you're always thinking through what you're saying, because what are the consequences going to be of if I say, Can we talk about what happened last night? You know that you're literally, you know, really on the verge of you know, a really tough situation for you, for for everyone in the household, it's gonna kick off. So keep your mouth shut, but then you can't, you're not free to say who you are, really. You can't talk about your feelings or what you truly feel for fear of them getting angry or cross. But then the other thing I think is really interesting here is that abuse isn't always nasty, and a lot of people will say, Well, my friends really like him, so it must be me. You know, my parents really like him, and he is really lovely when he's around them, so it must be me. But what they don't understand is that they need to some for some people to think that they are lovely and kind and warm and generous because that's a manipulation of that particular person in their orbit. They need them to think they're great because that serves them best, but they don't usually have people in their circle for very long. You'll find that their friendships uh quite often are uh you know they move through friends quite quickly because as soon as the friend sees who they are, they're gone. So usually they don't have many friends dating back from say their first school or from early childhood, or even back to your sort of university college days, because they they don't hang around, if they don't serve a purpose, they're gone.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Have you seen that with the and it's they they're really good at triangulation? So they put you in a position where, yeah, and I think right before I say that, their whole goal is like the master plan is isolation. So they want to get you into a position where you're isolated. So what you may start hearing, or what you they may start saying to you, is you know, your best friend, she's I I don't I don't know that she's good for you. I don't think she's a good influence. You know what I notice? Like every single time you guys go out, like you kind of drink a little too much, or you stay out a little late, or I've noticed that you kind of like change when you're around her. And they just start sort of just a little bit like like poisoning the well. That's how I sort of think about it. It's like they say, Oh, you know, your dad, uh, he's like so controlling. Like, oh God, like, are you his I don't like how his political views, I don't, I don't like your dad. I don't, you know, so they start they start looking around, and I do believe, like when I say it's like this giant mastermind. And if you've ever watched Homeland, it's like Carrie sitting there with like all those million strings everywhere. I'm like, that's what I feel like how they operate in their mind. And they're like, who can I control next? Or like, how do I get my goal to get her isolated. So if I can just cast a little doubt, and the thing about doubt that's so in uh in manipulation that's so hard is that they say things that are kind of true because if you remember, what they're always doing is taking inventory, you might have told him that Katie goes out and drinks a little bit too much. You might have told him that like, you know, when Katie gets home, she and Brad have a fight about whatever, you know, like you've told him these things as you would normally in a healthy relationship. You can just like download and share all these things. But they pick those moments that you're like, huh, wait, maybe, maybe he's right. And oh, my dad kind of does have these like political views that you know, maybe they are antiquated and I don't agree. And oh, wait. So they start doing this, and it's very easy in these moments that then you know you kind of look at the other people going, huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we're band banding together. We're gonna make our life better, and like we're gonna just be the two of us against the world. So when they can isolate you, they can control you. When they triangulate, they're like they start pitting people against each other as well. So, like it may be your your sister or your somebody. They're going to start a smear campaign against you. And I have to have you understand this to all of your listeners long before you're even aware. They have started a smear campaign, they have gone to your sister and said, you know, she's a little crazy. I don't know if it's postpartum, I don't know if it's her job, I don't know if it's this. Like she gets home sometimes and she's just like so otherwise, and this you know, they say all these things, and they are already sort of planting the seed. Because they and I wish I knew if they if this is just innately, or like they they they've maybe experienced it enough to know that at some point you're gonna figure it out and you're gonna try to leave. So they have to, like I say, poison the well. But they they've already told everybody everything that they could possibly, like the doubt, or if you work together or you know, in your certain friends, or maybe they even say it to your kids. I mean, who knows? Like they're just they're going to paint you as the villain every single time. And then unfortunately, if you've been in a relationship for this, for this a long for a long time, you are eventually living in a silo and you only see the world for what they've created, and you see it just in in their version. And it's really hard to know what is real and what is not, and you don't have anybody to go to anymore. But I like to say this all the time: the friends that you stopped communicating with because you were being isolated and because you were being controlled and manipulated, they're waiting for your phone call. They just don't know what to say. They just like we're told to like stay out of people's business, like keep your side of the street clean. And so a lot of times you're like, and you've lied. You're I um if you've been abused, you're you're lying to people. It doesn't make you a liar. You've just lied. You've not telling people about the abuse, you're pretending like your life is amazing, that like all things are good and all everything's you know, yeah, we're perfect.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

It's embarrassing as well, though. Sometimes it's so embarrassing. This is what shame.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Like we hold like shame. We've unlike and then you have to say, Hey, by the way. But I'm gonna say, like, they all know, they already knew, they think he's an asshole anyway.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

But they're like So true, so true. When the truth comes out, everyone's like, Finally, you've seen the light, and you're like, Oh my goodness. I mean, I think sometimes they do help you to destroy friendships because you're not your best self when you're in those relationships. So, you know, I know it can be scary reaching out to people that maybe you think maybe I would I haven't done right by them in the past, but you know, the the right people will stick by you, and there will be new people, and people even that are on your periphery that you probably don't think are actually that much of a friend. So I've been blown away sometimes by the people that step up when you really need them, and sometimes it's not the people you're closest to, sometimes it's people that you know are just there and are decent people and just reach out and help you up. And let's talk about you know, we're coming to the end of the book, but let's talk about some hopes, some positives, some takeaways that you have for people listening who are like, Look, you know, how does this get better and what can I do to make it better?

SPEAKER_01 50:08

I will say this there is no safety in staying silent. I say this every I end my podcast this way. I bitch is a bad word, ends every time. There is no safety in staying silent. So I want to say this if you're in a situation that's not safe, 911, crash on a friend's couch, do whatever you have to do to get safe. And also, if you're you know, uh I we're we're partners with the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799, safe. You can text them, thehotline.org. You need to get a safety plan, you need to get safe. So let's assume that you're in this safe place, you've gotten out, you're in a safe place, your next step is you know, as little to no contact as possible. I say this so that you can heal because even if you're out, they're gonna try to bring you back in, you know. So if you can get to this point where you're just sort of limiting your contact with the other person so that you can cut the supply because you're both addicted to this uh the toxicity, and you're sad and you're like, and they're gonna be the best version of themselves for those first like little while, get yourself in a really good position of just saying, I'm going to go no contact. And if you know, and maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe they'll change, but they won't. I promise you, don't even worry. But false hope. Just like don't just get to a place of you're you're so we're talking to a person who's safe, to a person who's ready to heal. And when you're in this place of of acceptance, like radical acceptance of saying, I was in something I really bad. And I have some work to do. I need to start healing. Please, like we don't need to be jumping into relationship right away. You don't, you like whatever uh situation you're in, if you have kids, it's like really just leaning into finding yourself again because you're a version of yourself that you do not recognize. And everything that was amazing about you, everything that like this person loved about you when they had you on that pedestal, they have devalued you, they've stripped you, they've ripped out all of the goodness and like thrown it away in a cupboard somewhere. Go like ransack that cupboard and get all the good things about you back. So start writing down all the things that you used to love, you know, figuring out what it is you want to do next. And I really say that in like in this situation, women, besties, baddies, you need community because when you can rebuild your network, you can start rebuilding your net worth. And and that net worth is not necessarily just financial, because you're gonna need to get your finances figured out. You're gonna need like there's a lot of things you're gonna have to do, but it's also just like your personal net worth. It's like how I feel about myself every single day. Because this, you've lived for so long with somebody who has just been like Ursula and wanted your voice, and now you're getting your voice back. And what's on the other side of this, claiming your power and knowing that you've just been through the hardest thing that anybody has ever been through and you've gotten through it, now harness that power and go be a baddie. Go be a badass that you know that's you have. So I think that women who've been through any sort of abuse or toxic relationship, single parenting, whatever, like you are resourceful, think you're an entrepreneur, you can do all sorts of things that you you know that you didn't even know you were capable of. Yeah, and you can still be the best mom and you can still, you know, cook dinner every night. And I laugh, I'll sort of share one quick story. Is like last night I was doing a work call. I had four kids in my house. You know, they were like, I was in between the calls, like, no more snacks, no more this, whatever. And then I looked look down as I'm having like I've got my ear pods in, I'm having a meeting, and I'm baking a freaking roast chicken. And I'm I'm putting on a roast because it's my daughter's first day back at high school. So I was like, we'll do a special dinner. And I'm just like stuffing the chicken, I'm doing all this stuff, I'm having the conversation, I'm whipping the batter for the Yorkshire puddings, and I'm going, like, look what I've just done. Like, all of having a you know, so just looking at just taking a moment and looking at how what you do on a just an hour by hour basis sometimes is like really all you need to look at and be proud of yourself. Like, look what I've just done. I just did this damn thing. And like we don't we feel like we're not conceited or self-absorbed or self-obsessed if we are patting ourselves on the back. If we're like, I just fucking did that. Like, look at that. You know, that you need to just be kind of be your biggest cheerleader and you're in be your own bestie is really what I would want to say. And then just know there's a massive community out there, especially now as we're sort of talking about abuse a little bit easier, you know, the stigma's being re removed, people are standing in their power, people are sharing their stories, you know, whatever it is that you have to do to feel seen and safe and heard and loved, do those things. And and so much will open up for you. And I kind of go back really to all the wheels that I was spinning, all the energy I was putting into, you know, proving my ex that I'm right. And all in like the first year of my post-separation was post-separation abuse. It was so horrible, so hectic. And what I realized, and somebody had told me, they're like, You're still in the relationship, you're still addicted to this person. And I'm like, No, I'm not, I'm not with them. And what I realized is, yeah, I I was. I was still giving them my power, I was still giving them my energy. So shift your energy, they don't deserve it. They don't, they they didn't deserve it on the first day, they don't deserve it on the last day, and stand in that place.

SPEAKER_04 55:50

I love it, and I also love the advice about being a badass because I think you kind of your confidence is low, your self-esteem is low, and that's really normal if you're coming out of a toxic relationship, and it is starting to realize your own self-worth and self-value, and stepping into that badass. I could do it, you know. I love that, I love that energy. I think what you do is incredible, you're really inspiring, and you've got some really wise words. Um, so thank you for sharing them. I want to ask you just one last question, as all the guests on my podcast. We're called Heartbreak to Happiness. So, what is happiness for you, Lindsay?

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Oh, happiness is knowing that sharing my story and reaching one person, if one person listening reaches out, or one person you know has said, I've made this difference because you have shared the story. I see this as turning, I say the same, just my pain into purpose. So my pain, if I can make a purpose in in anybody's life make any difference in my kid's life, in in a stranger's life, that is my absolute happiness. It's like walking through this just clear vision, clear path of like I have I say this all the time, like this LFG energy, like let's fucking go. Anytime someone's like, I'm ready, I'm going, I'm like, yes, let's fucking go, let's do it. Let's that's the happiness of just seeing like just change or in anybody. So sitting in this place, sharing the story, and somebody feeling inspired to just LFG is like that. Just does it. That that's like everything for me.

SPEAKER_04 57:31

Well, for sure, you'll have inspired so many people for to do exactly that right now from this episode. So thank you so much. I think you're fantastic. I think everyone should go and check you out. Where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 57:43

They can find us on all platforms, Apple, Spotify, anywhere that you listen to your shows. Bitch is a bad word. And you can find me on Instagram, send me a DM at bitch is a bad word pod. TikTok and YouTube is bitch is a bad word. We have a phone number too, 331 Bitches. You can send me your textys from your exes, I'll read them on the show. Send me a DM. I answer everything personally, and I really get inspired. I have a segment where we just share all the unhinged messages, excuse me, that people have sent us. And I feel like it does like bring that humor component because I feel like if you, you know, obviously laugh about it, it's a trauma response. But if you can like, if you can laugh and heal and see it for just what it is and not feel alone, that's what we're doing. So we have just this great community. We have a Patreon community where a bunch of women are getting together and they've I I'll pop in there and go, wow, like there's like so much cool shit happening in that. So just that's where we are, and reach definitely reach out, send me a message and check out bitch is a bad word.

SPEAKER_04 58:47

Absolutely highly recommend it. I think what you're doing is super inspiring. I think you laughter is the best medicine, and you definitely combine humour and I just love the way you pull it all together with your little sayings that are punchy and mean so much and motivate people, and you're just a wonderful person. So I'm really glad that we've met. I'm really glad and honoured that you came on the podcast, and that I consider you one of my besties because you're just fab. So thank you so much, Lizzie, for coming on the podcast today and being such a fabulous guest.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

You are so amazing. You are my absolute for life. I was Sarah's a baddie, and I I can't wait to just do more things together. Thank you for having me today.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

Oh, you're so welcome. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to like, follow, subscribe, all that good stuff, and I look forward to seeing you on our next episode.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

That's it for today's episode of Heartbreak to Happiness. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review to win a free ticket to Sara's virtual Heartbreak to Happiness retreat. This is a transformative combination of live webinars with Sara herself, coupled with her empowering online video program designed to help you cope better with your breakup and start feeling happy again. Thank you and join us again on the next episode for another dose of Heartbreak to Happiness.